At first, there was the entire saga of Msscribe, which was a train wreck that I couldn’t look away from. (If you’re not up to reading the 90,000 word account, here’s an abbreviated version.)
Then came the Cassandra Claire Plagiarism Debacle. The only thing I knew about CC was that she’d written The Very Secret Diaries, and at some point, had gotten a book deal. I didn’t even know that she wrote fanfic until I read the Msscribe story, above.
Now it turns out that CC wasn’t the only plagiarist — two other people in the same fandom did the same sort of copy and paste of original works.
Now — see — the thing is — I just don’t get it. Not at all. Unless they had copies of these texts online, and didn’t have to type them in — still — wouldn’t it be *easier* to just make up your own stuff? And more fun as well?
Really — I just — I just don’t get it.
Unless they had copies of these texts online, and didn’t have to type them in — still — wouldn’t it be *easier* to just make up your own stuff? And more fun as well?
That’s what consistently has be going “bzuh?” about all of this. The buffy stuff — that’s probably online. But the rest? Books online is a relatively new concept and some of these books were written three or four years ago, if not more. Which means that either these people had photographic memories, which is possible, but statistically unlikely for three individual people or they just … *flounders*
Qhy work so hard? Seriously? SOme of what CC did is clearly a case of “I remembered this and am using some of it” because it’s not exact and therefore harder to prove. But a lot of it has the same damned grammar. Exactly. She would’ve had to open the book and trascribe for a whole lot of it and seriously, why put yousrelf to that much effort? Why?
*flails*
Exactly. *Why* go to all this work for something that isn’t original? I mean — ack. I just do *not* get it. Even if you never got found out, this kind of secret would just eat away at me.
Then again, I think plagairism is *wrong*. *G* It’s something that I think all writers live in fear of, actually — that you’ve accidently used something that you’ve remembered, instead of coming up with something new and original.
And I *love* making shit up. That’s a huge part of the fun of writing for me. So again — WTF?
::cuddles with you and gets more popcorn::
I dona’t want to get into any imagined motivations for writers i don’t know, but I DO know that there are writers with notebooks full of bits they’ve written plus bits they loved and copied out of books in high school or junior high. All disorganized, because if they were organized, they wouldn’t be writers, but math minds. And in writing something new, they remember something from way back that just really fits, and dig it out, and did I write that? No notes on it, I guess I did!
I’ve met three people who have the exact same creation methods over the years, and many with enough similarities. I think of it as magpie mind–they collect words either in memory or on paper, nothing is organized or attributed, and in the fanfic world, so much gets cited, there was never any impetus to make certain it was one’s own work until relatively recently, or so I gather.
I agree that your explanation could be possible — that they ran across these bits and because they were in notebooks with no attributions, believed that they could be their own.
However, I don’t believe that to be the case here.
Maybe I’m just too cynical. But given the fact that in their disclaimers they mentioned the works in question, however, instead of citing them, merely said that they were inspired by those works.
Or maybe I just don’t understand the word “inspired.”
As for citing, I’ve seen other fics that quote liberally from the original source material (like from a particular episode of Buffy.) However, the show was always credited. These cases seem significantly different to me because they aren’t quoting from the original source material, but from other original works.
I suspect, until the person in question explains, it won’t be clear what happened. But the cleverness of the secret diaries (which no one is pointing fingers at) and the fine writing overall in the fanfic trilogy, makes me wonder if we’ve got someone who didn’t quite get around to all the hassle of going back for exact attributes rather than deliberately and cold-bloodedly pinching others’ material. I mean, her talent just shines. Why would she steal? I really think she was magpieing in a whole lot of stuff.
(I confess I also hate this huge lynch-mob toned uproar. Such things–groups going after one person–always make me very uncomfortable.)
Maybe I’m too forgiving, but I kind of feel like her early fanfiction was, essentially, stuff written as a kid–much like the stuff I stashed in all my early notebooks, and would have put online, unthinking, had there been a net to put it on. I have trouble with the notion that this somehow taints everything you write for the rest of your life–especially when those complaining about the stolen bits are, themselves, writing fanfiction–which is all about taking stolen bits and making them your own. (I actually like the idea of fanfiction being out there, personally–an opinion that’s evolved over time for me–but I think it’s a hard place from which to take the moral high ground.)
What I think is going on, actually, is raw jealousy–how dare she sell a book professionally when we haven’t.
I used to have this idealistic notion that, if you had a group of friends you wrote with growing up, and then you published, they’d all be happy for you, and realized that hey, we all have a chance at doing this professionally if we want to, because ordinary folks can publish after all. But you know, across the board, it’s my high school and college writing buddies — the ones who I met when we were all still writing only for fun, only for ourselves and for each other — who have been the ones who have gone all weird about my publishing stuff professionally. (With one exception–and I married him. 🙂 While my non-writing childhood friends have all seemed genuinely happy for me.
And the conviction that Cassandra Claire somehow sold her non-fanfic book unfairly makes no sense at all to me. We know from the VSDs that she can write, and write well; and I assume that’s why her book sold. But a remarkable number of people seem unwilling to believe that.
I have trouble with the notion that this somehow taints everything you write for the rest of your life
I agree with that. I think that new work should be looked at with a new eye.
I disagree, however, with the notion that what they did is just like all other fanfic. Yes, there’s some fanfic that quotes liberally from the original source. But it’s generally credited. These people were quoting from sources other than the original source material. This seems significantly different to me.
There may be some jealousy involved — but from what I’ve read so far, I don’t believe that’s all of it, or even the majority of it. I know that people were hurt in fandom because of the actions of these people. I think that’s fueling some of it — maybe most of it — because the people who were hurt and belittled and accused of lying are now finally getting their say and being believed. A lot of this I think is airing old wounds, giving them the chance to finally heal. Mind you, it’s also causing new wounds. . .
As for the group of writing friends — man, do I hear you on that. It still burns me how one of my “friends” treated the news when I sold my first novel. As you said, I’d naively believed she’d be happy for me, instead of jealous.
And yes, CC *must* have had a novel or a partial or something finished before she was offered some kind of book deal. No publisher is going to take her on based strickly on her “fandom cred”. It’s a business, they need to make money, and no one is going to take that big a chance without having something in hand.
There may indeed be things going on, within the fandom and it’s interactions that I know nothing about, and that are behind what’s being aired in public–I know almost nothing about the fandom itself, admittedly.
Even in abbreviated for, the msscribe stuff makes my eyes glaze over–I’ still not clear on what happened, there. (She faked fans to make herself popular within the fandom, essentially?) One of those things that really doesn’t make sense from outside, I guess.
I like to think I would have been happy for my early writing friends had they gotten to this publishing thing first. It still burns me that it’s so hard for those sorts of friends to be happy for one in turn, too. A little jealousy is human, sure–but I keep thinking it doesn’t need to cloud everything else. In an ideal world, I guess.
Unless they had copies of these texts online, and didn’t have to type them in — still — wouldn’t it be *easier* to just make up your own stuff? And more fun as well?
That’s what consistently has be going “bzuh?” about all of this. The buffy stuff — that’s probably online. But the rest? Books online is a relatively new concept and some of these books were written three or four years ago, if not more. Which means that either these people had photographic memories, which is possible, but statistically unlikely for three individual people or they just … *flounders*
Qhy work so hard? Seriously? SOme of what CC did is clearly a case of “I remembered this and am using some of it” because it’s not exact and therefore harder to prove. But a lot of it has the same damned grammar. Exactly. She would’ve had to open the book and trascribe for a whole lot of it and seriously, why put yousrelf to that much effort? Why?
*flails*
Exactly. *Why* go to all this work for something that isn’t original? I mean — ack. I just do *not* get it. Even if you never got found out, this kind of secret would just eat away at me.
Then again, I think plagairism is *wrong*. *G* It’s something that I think all writers live in fear of, actually — that you’ve accidently used something that you’ve remembered, instead of coming up with something new and original.
And I *love* making shit up. That’s a huge part of the fun of writing for me. So again — WTF?
::cuddles with you and gets more popcorn::
I dona’t want to get into any imagined motivations for writers i don’t know, but I DO know that there are writers with notebooks full of bits they’ve written plus bits they loved and copied out of books in high school or junior high. All disorganized, because if they were organized, they wouldn’t be writers, but math minds. And in writing something new, they remember something from way back that just really fits, and dig it out, and did I write that? No notes on it, I guess I did!
I’ve met three people who have the exact same creation methods over the years, and many with enough similarities. I think of it as magpie mind–they collect words either in memory or on paper, nothing is organized or attributed, and in the fanfic world, so much gets cited, there was never any impetus to make certain it was one’s own work until relatively recently, or so I gather.
I agree that your explanation could be possible — that they ran across these bits and because they were in notebooks with no attributions, believed that they could be their own.
However, I don’t believe that to be the case here.
Maybe I’m just too cynical. But given the fact that in their disclaimers they mentioned the works in question, however, instead of citing them, merely said that they were inspired by those works.
Or maybe I just don’t understand the word “inspired.”
As for citing, I’ve seen other fics that quote liberally from the original source material (like from a particular episode of Buffy.) However, the show was always credited. These cases seem significantly different to me because they aren’t quoting from the original source material, but from other original works.
I suspect, until the person in question explains, it won’t be clear what happened. But the cleverness of the secret diaries (which no one is pointing fingers at) and the fine writing overall in the fanfic trilogy, makes me wonder if we’ve got someone who didn’t quite get around to all the hassle of going back for exact attributes rather than deliberately and cold-bloodedly pinching others’ material. I mean, her talent just shines. Why would she steal? I really think she was magpieing in a whole lot of stuff.
(I confess I also hate this huge lynch-mob toned uproar. Such things–groups going after one person–always make me very uncomfortable.)
Maybe I’m too forgiving, but I kind of feel like her early fanfiction was, essentially, stuff written as a kid–much like the stuff I stashed in all my early notebooks, and would have put online, unthinking, had there been a net to put it on. I have trouble with the notion that this somehow taints everything you write for the rest of your life–especially when those complaining about the stolen bits are, themselves, writing fanfiction–which is all about taking stolen bits and making them your own. (I actually like the idea of fanfiction being out there, personally–an opinion that’s evolved over time for me–but I think it’s a hard place from which to take the moral high ground.)
What I think is going on, actually, is raw jealousy–how dare she sell a book professionally when we haven’t.
I used to have this idealistic notion that, if you had a group of friends you wrote with growing up, and then you published, they’d all be happy for you, and realized that hey, we all have a chance at doing this professionally if we want to, because ordinary folks can publish after all. But you know, across the board, it’s my high school and college writing buddies — the ones who I met when we were all still writing only for fun, only for ourselves and for each other — who have been the ones who have gone all weird about my publishing stuff professionally. (With one exception–and I married him. 🙂 While my non-writing childhood friends have all seemed genuinely happy for me.
And the conviction that Cassandra Claire somehow sold her non-fanfic book unfairly makes no sense at all to me. We know from the VSDs that she can write, and write well; and I assume that’s why her book sold. But a remarkable number of people seem unwilling to believe that.
I have trouble with the notion that this somehow taints everything you write for the rest of your life
I agree with that. I think that new work should be looked at with a new eye.
I disagree, however, with the notion that what they did is just like all other fanfic. Yes, there’s some fanfic that quotes liberally from the original source. But it’s generally credited. These people were quoting from sources other than the original source material. This seems significantly different to me.
There may be some jealousy involved — but from what I’ve read so far, I don’t believe that’s all of it, or even the majority of it. I know that people were hurt in fandom because of the actions of these people. I think that’s fueling some of it — maybe most of it — because the people who were hurt and belittled and accused of lying are now finally getting their say and being believed. A lot of this I think is airing old wounds, giving them the chance to finally heal. Mind you, it’s also causing new wounds. . .
As for the group of writing friends — man, do I hear you on that. It still burns me how one of my “friends” treated the news when I sold my first novel. As you said, I’d naively believed she’d be happy for me, instead of jealous.
And yes, CC *must* have had a novel or a partial or something finished before she was offered some kind of book deal. No publisher is going to take her on based strickly on her “fandom cred”. It’s a business, they need to make money, and no one is going to take that big a chance without having something in hand.
There may indeed be things going on, within the fandom and it’s interactions that I know nothing about, and that are behind what’s being aired in public–I know almost nothing about the fandom itself, admittedly.
Even in abbreviated for, the msscribe stuff makes my eyes glaze over–I’ still not clear on what happened, there. (She faked fans to make herself popular within the fandom, essentially?) One of those things that really doesn’t make sense from outside, I guess.
I like to think I would have been happy for my early writing friends had they gotten to this publishing thing first. It still burns me that it’s so hard for those sorts of friends to be happy for one in turn, too. A little jealousy is human, sure–but I keep thinking it doesn’t need to cloud everything else. In an ideal world, I guess.
As for the group of writing friends — man, do I hear you on that. It still burns me how one of my “friends” treated the news when I sold my first novel. As you said, I’d naively believed she’d be happy for me, instead of jealous.
*waves* 🙂
This has really amazed me, too. I wasn’t prepared for it. The jealousy I’ve seen over the last few months as things have started revving up w/my series really has saddened me. This publishing thing doesn’t just magically happen; it’s *hard* work. Seems to be a difficult concept for those who long to write but never seem able to actually get around to it.
As to CC, I’m surprised that so many people are in an uproar, though I honestly didn’t read the whole thing; just doesn’t interest me much. This kind of stuff goes on every day in fanfic, so why is everyone outraged about it? I don’t understand the sense of entitlement w/fanfic (they are *stealing* someone else’s characters and ideas in the first place!). But maybe I’m just being too narrow-minded here.
Glad to see you posting; have been wondering how you’ve been.
*resumes lurking*
*butts in before L can*
As to CC, I’m surprised that so many people are in an uproar, though I honestly didn’t read the whole thing; just doesn’t interest me much. This kind of stuff goes on every day in fanfic, so why is everyone outraged about it? I don’t understand the sense of entitlement w/fanfic (they are *stealing* someone else’s characters and ideas in the first place!). But maybe I’m just being too narrow-minded here.
Hm. That’s… well, that’s a couple things at once, so lemme try and break them down.
surprised so many people are in an uproar — part of that has to do with the mythos and rabid fanpoodling that surrounds Cassie Claire. Normal fanfic writers — all many thousands of us — are not Cassie Claire. We don’t get her adulation, we don’t get lawyers to accuse others of libel for us, we don’t get laptops bought for us in two days, etc etc. She is a huge name in HP, even now when her popularity is on the wane, and people idolized and adored her to insane levels. Levels like JKR gets, as an example. To find out that her wit and her skills, so much lauded by so many, are the result of plagerism is a slap in the face to those who really write and work damn, damn hard at what they do.
This kind of stuff goes on every day in fanfic — not as often as you think. And there many groups that watch for this kind of rampant plagerism because no. Not without proper citation.
they are *stealing* someone else’s characters and ideas in the first place! — there is a big, huge difference between taking characters and situations that are attractive and rewriting them in new places with new insights or plots and taking the words out of those characters’ mouths, or the prose out of another authors’ pages. Do you want to call it stealing? I won’t actually quibble. I will, however, point to Tom Stoppard, the oft-referenced author who took two Shakespearean characters and created an entire book out of them, Rozencrats and Gildenstern are Dead. That’s fanfic. So is Wicked. There are a lot of other examples, too, because writers have honestly been doing this from the beginning of time. It’s just a slightly different way of looking at things.
There real key, I think, is that there’s a big difference between plagerism and copyright infringement. I think you’re really referencing to copyright infringement and yes, in that case, most fanfic authors don’t have a leg to stand on. We know it, too. That’s why we disclaim as much as possible and don’t make money off of it.
But plagerism isn’t just taking characters and reinventing them, or continuing a beloved tale, etc. It’s taking the physical words those characters spoke (without citation) and those situations the author’s described and claiming them as things you’ve created. And that is just not done in most fandoms. HP is by far the worst, as far as that’s concerned.
I don’t understand the sense of entitlement w/fanfic — I’m not sure what you mean by entitlement? If I haven’t scared you off, I’d love to know what you meant because… um, I honestly have no clue.
And, er, because I know me — please do not think I am angry with you or trying to lecture you. I’m absolutely not. Or, well, I’m not angry; I can’t vouch for the lecturing tone *G*. It’s just that since I do write fanfic, I try to correct misconceptions whereever I can. That’s all this was 🙂
Oh, I love a good discussion as much as the next person. 🙂 I appreciate your thoughts. And I should say as a disclaimer: I know very little about modern fanfic other than what I’ve seen friends do, so I own that I may have tons of misconceptions. Hope you’ll bear w/me on that.
As I said, I have friends who write fanfic, and I believe that it takes a lot of work and love. I also think it’s an excellent way to learn to write–hell, I did it myself w/”Robin of Sherwood” (wonderful BBC TV series) when I was a kid. However, what I’ve found with some of these friends is that they cling to the fanfic and never write anything else. That’s fine if you want only to write fanfic, but not so great if you want to write your own original stuff.
However, the point is well taken that imitation has been the hallmark of writing since well…the invention of writing itself. In both Eastern and Western lit., you find recycling of images, tropes, characters, lines…I mean, how many things have been written about the Devil, for instance? Satan fanfic is everywhere! 😉
I guess I have trouble, though, wrapping my mind around modern fanfic, for some reason that honestly eludes me. As a teacher of creative writing, I gladly encourage my students to imitate, maybe even play around in someone else’s world, with someone else’s characters, like HP, for instance. But I would never encourage them to publish it in any form, b/c of the accusations of copyright infringement, plagiarism, etc.
I understand that Cassie is a huge name; I know her through a friend of hers. But is the idolatry surrounding her b/c of her writing or the subject matter? So many people love HP and want more, more, more. If she gave them that, and sounded even slightly like Rowling, then of course people will adore her. I’m just not surprised that there’s plagiarism b/c there’s copyright infringement to begin with. This opens an interesting debate, I suppose–does copyright infringement stimulate or exacerbate the tendency to plagiarize? I don’t know. Maybe. I just think that fanfic opens the door to that, b/c you’re very strictly tied to the way in which the character/world/situations have been presented. Now, of course, it’s possible to do variations on a theme, as I’ve said. But, say you have a character who uses a token expression all the time in the original work. If you use it in fanfic, is that plagiarism or is it just following the character’s nature?
What I meant by entitlement is just that I can’t understand why anyone thinks it’s OK to lift wholesale and publish (in whatever medium) concepts, characters, worlds that belong to other people. Hence, again, why is everyone so upset w/CC? (Beyond her notoriety and the fact that we’re all touchy after the Viswanathan thing). I mean, it seems to me that if anyone should be upset here, it’s Rowling. (I still haven’t figured out, is Pamela Dean upset or not? Too confusing!) I would *love* to write Battle of the Planets fanfic, but those characters don’t belong to me, so I’m sure I never will.
The more I think about it, though, the more all this fascinates me, b/c where truly does one draw the line? It’s common knowledge that there are no original plots or stories, that even writers of “original” stuff are often modeling characters after people or other characters they loved…
Good grief–I definitely feel like I’m in the well of treacle here…Help! 🙂
Yay! I’m glad I didn’t sound like an overbearing person; I do, on many an occasion, and I hate it because I don’t mean it, it’s just how it comes out.
o I own that I may have tons of misconceptions. Hope you’ll bear w/me on that. — totally no problem 🙂
However, what I’ve found with some of these friends is that they cling to the fanfic and never write anything else. That’s fine if you want only to write fanfic, but not so great if you want to write your own original stuff. — It is a very difficult balance to strike. Some people get stuck in a fanfic rut and their original work languishes; I hear people complain about that all the time. But for people like myself, I will never write original fic. I’m just not that kind of writer and I’m really okay with that. Convincing some people of that, though is … difficult. I’d be an excellent writer on an established tv-series, basically, but never the showrunner, if that makes sense. A lot of fanfic writers are like that.
But I would never encourage them to publish it in any form, b/c of the accusations of copyright infringement, plagiarism, etc. — By publish do you mean on the internet, or for purchase? Because other than zines, which are a whole different kettle of fish, there is very, very little fanfic that’s published for money and I know of several cases where that was stamped out quickly. It’s not for profit, at all, and as a community we tend to be very self-policing because if someone wanted to take legal action against us they could and they’d win. No question.
That said — those of us who usually write fanfic? Are also the biggest monetary support base, particularly for genre shows. We’re the ones who buy dvds and action figures and go to cons, etc. Some pople, like Ann Rice, have learned that pissing us off can have an adverse affect on sales. So it goes two ways.
But is the idolatry surrounding her b/c of her writing or the subject matter? — That’s kind of a chicken-and-egg thing. I, personally, think her writing was a vehicle for her soap-boxing. She’s a dynamic figure and she can be incredibly charming. She also was very, very early to be a Draco supporter and as he matured the fandom around him grew huge. She was entry level, so she got catapulted up with him. There’s also the way HP was run, back in the early days. No other fandom I have ever been in or been in tandem with has ever had BNF’s the way HP did. Nobody.
does copyright infringement stimulate or exacerbate the tendency to plagiarize? — that, I think, depends a lot on the medium, since tv/movie mediums don’t have as much to directly plagerise, but I also think your definition is a little too broad, still.
If I were writing a Homeric piece and I was talking about Odysseus, of course I’d have to mention his bloody-damned brawny arms. That’s his tag, like light-footed Achilles. Is that plagerism? Not really, because anyone who praised me for that would be told that those phrases are not mine, and to read the poems because clearly they haven’t. However. If I were to add a little bit of, oh, the Aenied in there, and then try and pass it off as my own? That’s plagerism.
(con’t)
When we write fanfic, most of the time since there are definitely exceptions, it’s the idea is citation and creation that’s so key. Cassie claimed many of most famous passages and quotes as her own, even though some were clearly Joss or Pamela Dean. That’s plagerism. That isn’t homage, or using set tropes for a character, or some kind of pastish, which is what I think you’re refering to. That’s claiming someone’s word-for-word work as plagerism.
What I meant by entitlement is just that I can’t understand why anyone thinks it’s OK to lift wholesale and publish (in whatever medium) concepts, characters, worlds that belong to other people — We don’t, always, think it’s okay. Anne Rice has told people not to write fanfic — she burned a lot of bridges, but a large section of it stopped or went underground. Joss has stated that he’s okay with fanfic. Others are on the fence. Some authors of books hate it, some, like Lackey and Norton, have published books of others writing fanfic in their universe or their characters.
So… entitlement? We don’t think we’re entitled to do this, nor are we blind to the legal issues. But it’s fun, and it’s not harmful. We aren’t making money, and as mentioned before, we’re usually the ones spending the money. So it’s looked at and kind of shied away.
And, again, the best published author reference to this is Wicked. Baum’s estate is still very active, but there’s still a book published about Oz and the characters of Oz and that is most definitely fanfic. It just got published.
We don’t claim it’s ours. That’s the biggest thing. The moment you do claim it’s yours, it becomes plagerism, copyright infringement, and just plain wrong.
Hence, again, why is everyone so upset w/CC? Because she didn’t cite. Because she sicced lawyers on people who’ve accused her over the years. Because she based her popularity on lines that were definitely not hers. Because she used her popularity in fandom — as well as a real ability to write and hard work, I’m not denying that — as a means of getting a publishing deal. And yes, I’ve had confirmation that it is her fandom cred, among other things, that got her the deal.
She didn’t just take characters and put them in new situations. She stole words. The fanfic community does not appreciate that at all, because that crosses the line we balance on.
f anyone should be upset here, it’s Rowling. (I still haven’t figured out, is Pamela Dean upset or not? — I can’t remember if PD did something either, although I doubt it. Why? No money is being made. That is honestly the be-all and end-all of all fanfiction debates, and why it continues to exist. So long as no money is being made, it’s not copyright infringement. So long as no money is being made, it can’t be held up as plagerism to anyone but other fanfiction fans, because there’s no reason anyone should care. They can’t buy the book, or article. There’s no transaction of any kind of funds, which means no matter how much an author may dislike it — Rowling as stated she’s not fond of the pornier aspects because so many of her fans are younger kids, but she’s not adverse to fanfic as a whole — no can actually do anything about it.
We aren’t stealing, because we’re crediting the creation to someone else. That’s my interpretation, anyway. That’s… that’s borrowing someone else’s barbie dolls. The minute you try to say they’re your dolls, that’s theft. But so long as it’s playing without profit…?
Does that help clarify things? This is an incredibly grey subject, and I think not understanding the kind of cult of personality that happens in fandom, on a social level, might be hindering your understanding of why the CC thing is such a big deal. Because it’s not just about plagerism. It’s about years and years of lying to people.
And good GOD was that tl;dr! Sorry!
She is a huge name in HP, even now when her popularity is on the wane, and people idolized and adored her to insane levels.
I think this is why the whole flap makes so much sense from within, and so little from without, maybe–because while we all value our communities, wherever they are, it seems from outside like … well, like being a huge name in HP fandom just isn’t that big a deal.
In much the way there are people who everyone in my neighborhood might know, but that doesn’t make them a big deal in the larger world–and publishing a book happens in that larger world.
As a reader, whatever happens with CC’s non-fanfic book is about that book, not about the fandom politics or the fanfic writing. Telling me otherwise is like telling me a writer I like is hated in her home town, because she was on the wrong side of a fight about local zoning ordinances. It’s important to that town, but unless zoning politics are part of the book being written, it’s hard for me to understand why that should affect the publisher’s decision to buy her books, or my reading experience, or why it should make me less likely to pick up her next book.
But if I lived in that town, and had to live across the street from a Walmart as a result of that fight, well, maybe I’d feel differently.
but unless zoning politics are part of the book being written
I do see that, and 99.9% of that is correct. However. If she has used this much plagerism over the years, what’s to stop her from continuing it? It’s not like plagerism doesn’t happen in published fiction. Why should I spend money on something that probably isn’t hers, to begin with?
But yeah, this is a fanfic-only thing, no question there. While it may possibly have implications on her book and those who buy her book, it’s got nothing to do with that.
This publishing thing doesn’t just magically happen; it’s *hard* work.
That’s it exactly.
What amazed me was the sheer quantity of passages stolen. You can’t get through high school and not be aware that that constitutes plagiarism. Plus, it’s led me to wonder if *any* of CC’s trilogy is really HERS. People keep commenting on the changing of styles and the uneven writing quality, and in a few cases a change of tense. I think it goes beyond “learning to write as a kid” and into “too lazy to think of her own dialog/description”.
As for the group of writing friends — man, do I hear you on that. It still burns me how one of my “friends” treated the news when I sold my first novel. As you said, I’d naively believed she’d be happy for me, instead of jealous.
*waves* 🙂
This has really amazed me, too. I wasn’t prepared for it. The jealousy I’ve seen over the last few months as things have started revving up w/my series really has saddened me. This publishing thing doesn’t just magically happen; it’s *hard* work. Seems to be a difficult concept for those who long to write but never seem able to actually get around to it.
As to CC, I’m surprised that so many people are in an uproar, though I honestly didn’t read the whole thing; just doesn’t interest me much. This kind of stuff goes on every day in fanfic, so why is everyone outraged about it? I don’t understand the sense of entitlement w/fanfic (they are *stealing* someone else’s characters and ideas in the first place!). But maybe I’m just being too narrow-minded here.
Glad to see you posting; have been wondering how you’ve been.
*resumes lurking*
*butts in before L can*
As to CC, I’m surprised that so many people are in an uproar, though I honestly didn’t read the whole thing; just doesn’t interest me much. This kind of stuff goes on every day in fanfic, so why is everyone outraged about it? I don’t understand the sense of entitlement w/fanfic (they are *stealing* someone else’s characters and ideas in the first place!). But maybe I’m just being too narrow-minded here.
Hm. That’s… well, that’s a couple things at once, so lemme try and break them down.
surprised so many people are in an uproar — part of that has to do with the mythos and rabid fanpoodling that surrounds Cassie Claire. Normal fanfic writers — all many thousands of us — are not Cassie Claire. We don’t get her adulation, we don’t get lawyers to accuse others of libel for us, we don’t get laptops bought for us in two days, etc etc. She is a huge name in HP, even now when her popularity is on the wane, and people idolized and adored her to insane levels. Levels like JKR gets, as an example. To find out that her wit and her skills, so much lauded by so many, are the result of plagerism is a slap in the face to those who really write and work damn, damn hard at what they do.
This kind of stuff goes on every day in fanfic — not as often as you think. And there many groups that watch for this kind of rampant plagerism because no. Not without proper citation.
they are *stealing* someone else’s characters and ideas in the first place! — there is a big, huge difference between taking characters and situations that are attractive and rewriting them in new places with new insights or plots and taking the words out of those characters’ mouths, or the prose out of another authors’ pages. Do you want to call it stealing? I won’t actually quibble. I will, however, point to Tom Stoppard, the oft-referenced author who took two Shakespearean characters and created an entire book out of them, Rozencrats and Gildenstern are Dead. That’s fanfic. So is Wicked. There are a lot of other examples, too, because writers have honestly been doing this from the beginning of time. It’s just a slightly different way of looking at things.
There real key, I think, is that there’s a big difference between plagerism and copyright infringement. I think you’re really referencing to copyright infringement and yes, in that case, most fanfic authors don’t have a leg to stand on. We know it, too. That’s why we disclaim as much as possible and don’t make money off of it.
But plagerism isn’t just taking characters and reinventing them, or continuing a beloved tale, etc. It’s taking the physical words those characters spoke (without citation) and those situations the author’s described and claiming them as things you’ve created. And that is just not done in most fandoms. HP is by far the worst, as far as that’s concerned.
I don’t understand the sense of entitlement w/fanfic — I’m not sure what you mean by entitlement? If I haven’t scared you off, I’d love to know what you meant because… um, I honestly have no clue.
And, er, because I know me — please do not think I am angry with you or trying to lecture you. I’m absolutely not. Or, well, I’m not angry; I can’t vouch for the lecturing tone *G*. It’s just that since I do write fanfic, I try to correct misconceptions whereever I can. That’s all this was 🙂
Oh, I love a good discussion as much as the next person. 🙂 I appreciate your thoughts. And I should say as a disclaimer: I know very little about modern fanfic other than what I’ve seen friends do, so I own that I may have tons of misconceptions. Hope you’ll bear w/me on that.
As I said, I have friends who write fanfic, and I believe that it takes a lot of work and love. I also think it’s an excellent way to learn to write–hell, I did it myself w/”Robin of Sherwood” (wonderful BBC TV series) when I was a kid. However, what I’ve found with some of these friends is that they cling to the fanfic and never write anything else. That’s fine if you want only to write fanfic, but not so great if you want to write your own original stuff.
However, the point is well taken that imitation has been the hallmark of writing since well…the invention of writing itself. In both Eastern and Western lit., you find recycling of images, tropes, characters, lines…I mean, how many things have been written about the Devil, for instance? Satan fanfic is everywhere! 😉
I guess I have trouble, though, wrapping my mind around modern fanfic, for some reason that honestly eludes me. As a teacher of creative writing, I gladly encourage my students to imitate, maybe even play around in someone else’s world, with someone else’s characters, like HP, for instance. But I would never encourage them to publish it in any form, b/c of the accusations of copyright infringement, plagiarism, etc.
I understand that Cassie is a huge name; I know her through a friend of hers. But is the idolatry surrounding her b/c of her writing or the subject matter? So many people love HP and want more, more, more. If she gave them that, and sounded even slightly like Rowling, then of course people will adore her. I’m just not surprised that there’s plagiarism b/c there’s copyright infringement to begin with. This opens an interesting debate, I suppose–does copyright infringement stimulate or exacerbate the tendency to plagiarize? I don’t know. Maybe. I just think that fanfic opens the door to that, b/c you’re very strictly tied to the way in which the character/world/situations have been presented. Now, of course, it’s possible to do variations on a theme, as I’ve said. But, say you have a character who uses a token expression all the time in the original work. If you use it in fanfic, is that plagiarism or is it just following the character’s nature?
What I meant by entitlement is just that I can’t understand why anyone thinks it’s OK to lift wholesale and publish (in whatever medium) concepts, characters, worlds that belong to other people. Hence, again, why is everyone so upset w/CC? (Beyond her notoriety and the fact that we’re all touchy after the Viswanathan thing). I mean, it seems to me that if anyone should be upset here, it’s Rowling. (I still haven’t figured out, is Pamela Dean upset or not? Too confusing!) I would *love* to write Battle of the Planets fanfic, but those characters don’t belong to me, so I’m sure I never will.
The more I think about it, though, the more all this fascinates me, b/c where truly does one draw the line? It’s common knowledge that there are no original plots or stories, that even writers of “original” stuff are often modeling characters after people or other characters they loved…
Good grief–I definitely feel like I’m in the well of treacle here…Help! 🙂
Yay! I’m glad I didn’t sound like an overbearing person; I do, on many an occasion, and I hate it because I don’t mean it, it’s just how it comes out.
o I own that I may have tons of misconceptions. Hope you’ll bear w/me on that. — totally no problem 🙂
However, what I’ve found with some of these friends is that they cling to the fanfic and never write anything else. That’s fine if you want only to write fanfic, but not so great if you want to write your own original stuff. — It is a very difficult balance to strike. Some people get stuck in a fanfic rut and their original work languishes; I hear people complain about that all the time. But for people like myself, I will never write original fic. I’m just not that kind of writer and I’m really okay with that. Convincing some people of that, though is … difficult. I’d be an excellent writer on an established tv-series, basically, but never the showrunner, if that makes sense. A lot of fanfic writers are like that.
But I would never encourage them to publish it in any form, b/c of the accusations of copyright infringement, plagiarism, etc. — By publish do you mean on the internet, or for purchase? Because other than zines, which are a whole different kettle of fish, there is very, very little fanfic that’s published for money and I know of several cases where that was stamped out quickly. It’s not for profit, at all, and as a community we tend to be very self-policing because if someone wanted to take legal action against us they could and they’d win. No question.
That said — those of us who usually write fanfic? Are also the biggest monetary support base, particularly for genre shows. We’re the ones who buy dvds and action figures and go to cons, etc. Some pople, like Ann Rice, have learned that pissing us off can have an adverse affect on sales. So it goes two ways.
But is the idolatry surrounding her b/c of her writing or the subject matter? — That’s kind of a chicken-and-egg thing. I, personally, think her writing was a vehicle for her soap-boxing. She’s a dynamic figure and she can be incredibly charming. She also was very, very early to be a Draco supporter and as he matured the fandom around him grew huge. She was entry level, so she got catapulted up with him. There’s also the way HP was run, back in the early days. No other fandom I have ever been in or been in tandem with has ever had BNF’s the way HP did. Nobody.
does copyright infringement stimulate or exacerbate the tendency to plagiarize? — that, I think, depends a lot on the medium, since tv/movie mediums don’t have as much to directly plagerise, but I also think your definition is a little too broad, still.
If I were writing a Homeric piece and I was talking about Odysseus, of course I’d have to mention his bloody-damned brawny arms. That’s his tag, like light-footed Achilles. Is that plagerism? Not really, because anyone who praised me for that would be told that those phrases are not mine, and to read the poems because clearly they haven’t. However. If I were to add a little bit of, oh, the Aenied in there, and then try and pass it off as my own? That’s plagerism.
(con’t)
When we write fanfic, most of the time since there are definitely exceptions, it’s the idea is citation and creation that’s so key. Cassie claimed many of most famous passages and quotes as her own, even though some were clearly Joss or Pamela Dean. That’s plagerism. That isn’t homage, or using set tropes for a character, or some kind of pastish, which is what I think you’re refering to. That’s claiming someone’s word-for-word work as plagerism.
What I meant by entitlement is just that I can’t understand why anyone thinks it’s OK to lift wholesale and publish (in whatever medium) concepts, characters, worlds that belong to other people — We don’t, always, think it’s okay. Anne Rice has told people not to write fanfic — she burned a lot of bridges, but a large section of it stopped or went underground. Joss has stated that he’s okay with fanfic. Others are on the fence. Some authors of books hate it, some, like Lackey and Norton, have published books of others writing fanfic in their universe or their characters.
So… entitlement? We don’t think we’re entitled to do this, nor are we blind to the legal issues. But it’s fun, and it’s not harmful. We aren’t making money, and as mentioned before, we’re usually the ones spending the money. So it’s looked at and kind of shied away.
And, again, the best published author reference to this is Wicked. Baum’s estate is still very active, but there’s still a book published about Oz and the characters of Oz and that is most definitely fanfic. It just got published.
We don’t claim it’s ours. That’s the biggest thing. The moment you do claim it’s yours, it becomes plagerism, copyright infringement, and just plain wrong.
Hence, again, why is everyone so upset w/CC? Because she didn’t cite. Because she sicced lawyers on people who’ve accused her over the years. Because she based her popularity on lines that were definitely not hers. Because she used her popularity in fandom — as well as a real ability to write and hard work, I’m not denying that — as a means of getting a publishing deal. And yes, I’ve had confirmation that it is her fandom cred, among other things, that got her the deal.
She didn’t just take characters and put them in new situations. She stole words. The fanfic community does not appreciate that at all, because that crosses the line we balance on.
f anyone should be upset here, it’s Rowling. (I still haven’t figured out, is Pamela Dean upset or not? — I can’t remember if PD did something either, although I doubt it. Why? No money is being made. That is honestly the be-all and end-all of all fanfiction debates, and why it continues to exist. So long as no money is being made, it’s not copyright infringement. So long as no money is being made, it can’t be held up as plagerism to anyone but other fanfiction fans, because there’s no reason anyone should care. They can’t buy the book, or article. There’s no transaction of any kind of funds, which means no matter how much an author may dislike it — Rowling as stated she’s not fond of the pornier aspects because so many of her fans are younger kids, but she’s not adverse to fanfic as a whole — no can actually do anything about it.
We aren’t stealing, because we’re crediting the creation to someone else. That’s my interpretation, anyway. That’s… that’s borrowing someone else’s barbie dolls. The minute you try to say they’re your dolls, that’s theft. But so long as it’s playing without profit…?
Does that help clarify things? This is an incredibly grey subject, and I think not understanding the kind of cult of personality that happens in fandom, on a social level, might be hindering your understanding of why the CC thing is such a big deal. Because it’s not just about plagerism. It’s about years and years of lying to people.
And good GOD was that tl;dr! Sorry!
She is a huge name in HP, even now when her popularity is on the wane, and people idolized and adored her to insane levels.
I think this is why the whole flap makes so much sense from within, and so little from without, maybe–because while we all value our communities, wherever they are, it seems from outside like … well, like being a huge name in HP fandom just isn’t that big a deal.
In much the way there are people who everyone in my neighborhood might know, but that doesn’t make them a big deal in the larger world–and publishing a book happens in that larger world.
As a reader, whatever happens with CC’s non-fanfic book is about that book, not about the fandom politics or the fanfic writing. Telling me otherwise is like telling me a writer I like is hated in her home town, because she was on the wrong side of a fight about local zoning ordinances. It’s important to that town, but unless zoning politics are part of the book being written, it’s hard for me to understand why that should affect the publisher’s decision to buy her books, or my reading experience, or why it should make me less likely to pick up her next book.
But if I lived in that town, and had to live across the street from a Walmart as a result of that fight, well, maybe I’d feel differently.
but unless zoning politics are part of the book being written
I do see that, and 99.9% of that is correct. However. If she has used this much plagerism over the years, what’s to stop her from continuing it? It’s not like plagerism doesn’t happen in published fiction. Why should I spend money on something that probably isn’t hers, to begin with?
But yeah, this is a fanfic-only thing, no question there. While it may possibly have implications on her book and those who buy her book, it’s got nothing to do with that.
This publishing thing doesn’t just magically happen; it’s *hard* work.
That’s it exactly.
What amazed me was the sheer quantity of passages stolen. You can’t get through high school and not be aware that that constitutes plagiarism. Plus, it’s led me to wonder if *any* of CC’s trilogy is really HERS. People keep commenting on the changing of styles and the uneven writing quality, and in a few cases a change of tense. I think it goes beyond “learning to write as a kid” and into “too lazy to think of her own dialog/description”.